[I18NdotNET] Breaking free from UNICODE

Discussion:

Suzanne M. Topping

2003-08-18 17:38:42 UTC

Thought you folks might be interested in this recent posting from another list.

-----Original Message-----
From: Kiran Vinjamuri [mailto:***@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:36 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [I18NdotNET] Breaking free from UNICODE

Hi guys
I am Working on a project for Indian Languages.

what is the project?
It is a total solution for all language complexities
to break free from the painful & design of Unicode
which is not copletely serving the purpose for indian languages.

what it does?
1. Language shall not depend on Unicode.
2. It attempts to create a totally new encoding scheme
for Indian use alone.
3. This scheme should be a encoding standard across
all platforms specially designed for indian use
4. Will provide adueqte support for data exchange

what i need?
Any indians and other who feel unicode is not serving
the purpose to use their complex languages ( like
asian) please contact me.

Thank you very much
-Surya Kiran Vinjamuri

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Don Osborn

2003-08-19 17:45:52 UTC

Permalink

Such opinions - and they are not necessarily isolated cranks - make one
wonder if there is not a huge "outreach" gap in Unicode's longterm strategy.
A session on internet & African languages that was part of the WSIS prepcom
in Bamako last year was critical of Unicode as it is. An individual on the
newsgroup fr.comp.normes.unicode denounced Unicode as an American scheme.
And the posting below...

Or more benignly, an eminent linguist who seriously questions how one can
treat several scripts on a single computer. Or computer trainers (in a
multilingual society) who have heard the name "unicode," but have no clear
idea what it means.

Am I the only one wondering, or is there more that the Consortium could do
for public education in its own cause? Perhaps there are good explanations
and I should hasten to add I'm not criticizing anyone. But the need seems
evident, at least from out here in the cloudy Sahel.

Don Osborn
Bisharat.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Suzanne M. Topping" <***@bizwonk.com>
To: <***@unicode.org>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 7:38 PM
Subject: FW: [I18NdotNET] Breaking free from UNICODE

Post by Suzanne M. Topping
Thought you folks might be interested in this recent posting from another list.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:36 AM
Subject: [I18NdotNET] Breaking free from UNICODE
Hi guys
I am Working on a project for Indian Languages.
what is the project?
It is a total solution for all language complexities
to break free from the painful & design of Unicode
which is not copletely serving the purpose for indian languages.
what it does?
1. Language shall not depend on Unicode.
2. It attempts to create a totally new encoding scheme
for Indian use alone.
3. This scheme should be a encoding standard across
all platforms specially designed for indian use
4. Will provide adueqte support for data exchange
what i need?
Any indians and other who feel unicode is not serving
the purpose to use their complex languages ( like
asian) please contact me.
Thank you very much
-Surya Kiran Vinjamuri

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Michael Everson

2003-08-19 19:17:24 UTC

Permalink

How is it that Unicode doesn't satisfy the requirements of the
languages of Africa?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

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Patrick Andries

2003-08-19 19:55:08 UTC

Permalink

I believe Don was saying that the problem is generally one of education and
outreach (also in those people's language of education, often French).

But, if forced, I could mention Berbère.

P. Andries

- o - 0 - o -
ISO 10646 en français
UTR n° 20 en cours de traduction (révision bienvenue)
http://pages.infinit.net/hapax

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Don Osborn

2003-08-19 21:47:02 UTC

Permalink

Patrick, What characters are lacking for Berber? I thought I understood
(from others) that the Latin and Arabic transcriptions were covered and all
that remains is Tifinagh, which of course is in the pipeline. Don

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Andries" <***@xcential.com>
To: <***@unicode.org>; "Michael Everson" <***@evertype.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: Breaking free from UNICODE

Post by Patrick Andries
I believe Don was saying that the problem is generally one of education and
outreach (also in those people's language of education, often French).
But, if forced, I could mention Berbère.
P. Andries
- o - 0 - o -
ISO 10646 en français
UTR n° 20 en cours de traduction (révision bienvenue)
http://pages.infinit.net/hapax

Patrick Andries

2003-08-20 01:51:56 UTC

Permalink

----- Message d'origine -----

Post by Don Osborn
Patrick, What characters are lacking for Berber? I thought I understood
(from others) that the Latin and Arabic transcriptions were covered and all
that remains is Tifinagh, which of course is in the pipeline. Don

Well, the problem is exactly that the Berbère script (tifinagh) is only in
the pipeline...

And this is the script chosen by the Institut royal marocain de la culture
amazighe (berbère)

http://www.rechtschreibreform.de/Forum/printthread.php?threadid=517

« AFP 2/II/2003 20h55 --
L'Institut royal marocain de la culture amazighe (berbère) vient d'adopter
le "tifinagh", un alphabet berbère vieux de quelque 3.000 ans, pour
l'écriture de cette langue, de préférence aux alphabets latin ou arabe,
a-t-on appris lundi à Rabat auprès de cet organisme. Les défenseurs de la
culture berbère attendaient l'adoption d'une "transcription" unifiée pour
l'écriture de cette langue, encore parlée par environ la moitié des
Marocains, notamment en vue de son intégration dans le système scolaire du
royaume. L'institut royal - créé en 2001 par le roi Mohammed VI du Maroc -,
a fait "le meilleur choix en adoptant cet alphabet identitaire", a déclaré à
l'AFP Brahim Akhiat, membre de cet institut et président de l'Association
marocaine de recherches et d'échanges culturels (Amrec). L'alphabet tifinagh
a été utilisé, sous forme décorative et artistique, au nord du Niger, au
Mali, aux Iles Canaries et en Egypte, selon un document de l'Amrec,
principale association culturelle amazighe du pays. Il est constitué de 33
consonnes, 4 voyelles et 2 semi-voyelles. "L'utilisation du tifinagh est
extrêmement simple", a assuré M. Akhiat en évoquant à titre d'exemple une
version tifinagh du "Petit prince" d'Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, largement
diffusée au Niger et au Mali. L'Institut royal de la culture amazighe a été
chargé par le souverain marocain de mettre en place des programmes
d'enseignement du berbère dans les écoles primaires du royaume. Le choix de
l'alphabet à utiliser a fait l'objet d'une polémique qui a opposé les
partisans de transcription du berbère en caractères arabes, latins ou
tifinagh. Ce débat avait conduit les autorités à reporter le démarrage des
cours de berbère à la prochaine rentrée scolaire, a indiqué M. Akhiat. »

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Don Osborn

2003-08-19 21:25:13 UTC

Permalink

Michael, See
http://www.geneva2003.org/bamako2002/doc_html/languagesandinternet-en.html .
The concern there was evidently about lack of precomposed characters, and
the Consortium's decision not to add any more. Though as others have
pointed out elsewhere, dynamic composition should address these needs.

The real issue, and the reason that I mention last year's meeting in Bamako,
is that it seems to indicate a need for more public relations / education
concerning aspects of Unicode in various potential user communities. If
Africa seriously invests in 8-bit fonts at this stage and engages in
lobbying with Unicode for adding more precomposed characters (regardless of
the merits or not of that case), it would seem to be a costly detour off the
road to multilingual computing and internet across the continent. However,
this is what has been called for and there is no answer from Unicode that I
am aware of, although there was some discussion on the a12n-collaboration
group.

Since I'm on the topic ... The character data linked and assembled on the
A12n page of the Bisharat site (http://www.bisharat.net/A12N) is in part an
effort to inventory what is needed in terms of characters so that hopefully
there can be more clarity through specificity in such discussions. My
impression is that 1) the needs for composed (diacritical) characters are
relatively limited anyway, 2) most of those are addressed in Unicode by
existing precomposed characters, 3) they concern a limited number of
languages probably concentrated in certain countries, and 4) many of the
composed-character issues involve tone markings on vowels that may not be
regularly used. So the needs may actually be relatively confined to certain
languages and/or particular uses.

If this is correct, then the issue - even accepting for a moment the
argument in favor of adding precomposeds to the Unicode standard - does not
seem that major to begin with. Which is to say, that common usage for most
African languages across most of the continent may be satisfied by existing
unicode characters without dynamic composition. So for what's left, I'd
leave it to others to make the outreach with ACALAN (in particular among the
participants in the Bamako prepcom) for dynamic composition.

Don Osborn
Bisharat.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Everson" <***@evertype.com>
To: <***@unicode.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: Breaking free from UNICODE

Post by Michael Everson
How is it that Unicode doesn't satisfy the requirements of the
languages of Africa?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Osborn" <***@bisharat.net>
To: "Don Osborn" <***@bisharat.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [I18NdotNET] Breaking free from UNICODE

Post by Michael Everson
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [I18NdotNET] Breaking free from UNICODE

Post by Don Osborn
Such opinions - and they are not necessarily isolated cranks - make one
wonder if there is not a huge "outreach" gap in Unicode's longterm

strategy.

Post by Don Osborn
A session on internet & African languages that was part of the WSIS

prepcom

Post by Don Osborn
in Bamako last year was critical of Unicode as it is. An individual on

the

Post by Don Osborn
newsgroup fr.comp.normes.unicode denounced Unicode as an American scheme.
And the posting below...
Or more benignly, an eminent linguist who seriously questions how one can
treat several scripts on a single computer. Or computer trainers (in a
multilingual society) who have heard the name "unicode," but have no clear
idea what it means.
Am I the only one wondering, or is there more that the Consortium could do
for public education in its own cause? Perhaps there are good

explanations

Post by Don Osborn
and I should hasten to add I'm not criticizing anyone. But the need seems
evident, at least from out here in the cloudy Sahel.
Don Osborn
Bisharat.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 7:38 PM
Subject: FW: [I18NdotNET] Breaking free from UNICODE

Post by Suzanne M. Topping
Thought you folks might be interested in this recent posting from

another

Post by Don Osborn
list.

Post by Suzanne M. Topping
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:36 AM
Subject: [I18NdotNET] Breaking free from UNICODE
Hi guys
I am Working on a project for Indian Languages.
what is the project?
It is a total solution for all language complexities
to break free from the painful & design of Unicode
which is not copletely serving the purpose for indian languages.
what it does?
1. Language shall not depend on Unicode.
2. It attempts to create a totally new encoding scheme
for Indian use alone.
3. This scheme should be a encoding standard across
all platforms specially designed for indian use
4. Will provide adueqte support for data exchange
what i need?
Any indians and other who feel unicode is not serving
the purpose to use their complex languages ( like
asian) please contact me.
Thank you very much
-Surya Kiran Vinjamuri

Kenneth Whistler

2003-08-19 21:42:46 UTC

Permalink

Post by Don Osborn
Such opinions - and they are not necessarily isolated cranks - make one
wonder if there is not a huge "outreach" gap in Unicode's longterm strategy.

Perhaps. Although I don't think I would characterize it as a "huge" gap.

Post by Don Osborn
A session on internet & African languages that was part of the WSIS prepcom
in Bamako last year was critical of Unicode as it is. An individual on the
newsgroup fr.comp.normes.unicode denounced Unicode as an American scheme.

The problem is, like much else, Unicode has gotten caught up in
the much larger political, social, and economic currents regarding
globalization. There are plenty of people who come into the discussion
with preconceived notions (many of which are at least partially
accurate) regarding the intent of American driven information
technology, and more generally, global corporations, to control the
world.

No amount of well-intended outreach, education, PR, or spinning
by the Unicode Consortium is likely to have much of a direct impact
on that larger tidal wave of the Zeitgeist, IMO. Particularly
with the American government behaving the way it has recently. :-(

If people want to believe the worst of Unicode, they will do so
and manage to find reasons in the standard or on the website to
support their opinions, no matter what we say.

Post by Don Osborn
And the posting below...
Or more benignly, an eminent linguist who seriously questions how one can
treat several scripts on a single computer.

As a trained linguist myself, I find this kind of learned opposition
from linguists who ought to know better particularly disturbing,
though not surprising, actually. As in any field of endeavor, there
are many eminent linguists who are computer-averse or who fail
to apply the same standards of analytic rigor that they might
apply to linguistic data, to the problem of computational representation
of text. Some seem to expect too little of computers, while others
set impossible goals inappropriate for the scope of Unicode.

Post by Don Osborn
Or computer trainers (in a
multilingual society) who have heard the name "unicode," but have no clear
idea what it means.
Am I the only one wondering, or is there more that the Consortium could do
for public education in its own cause? Perhaps there are good explanations
and I should hasten to add I'm not criticizing anyone. But the need seems
evident, at least from out here in the cloudy Sahel.

If anyone happens to know of a Carl Sagan
sitting around with nothing to do and with a hankering to put on
a television spectacular extolling the glory of billions and
billions of characters, I'm sure the Unicode Consortium
would be pleased to cooperate in providing source material
and interviews for the TV script. ;-)

--Ken

Post by Don Osborn
Don Osborn
Bisharat.net

Michael Everson

2003-08-19 22:14:47 UTC

Permalink

Post by Don Osborn
And the posting below...
Or more benignly, an eminent linguist who seriously questions how one can
treat several scripts on a single computer.

Golly, I was able to distinguish Latin and Georgian and Cyrillic on a
Mac SE 30 in 1985. Or was it 1987.(Long before Worldscript I admit.)
And years before that there was the Osborne with its dot-matrix
miracles.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

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P***@sil.org

2003-09-02 13:48:04 UTC

Permalink

Post by Michael Everson
Golly, I was able to distinguish Latin and Georgian and Cyrillic on a
Mac SE 30 in 1985. Or was it 1987.(Long before Worldscript I admit.)
And years before that there was the Osborne with its dot-matrix
miracles.

IIRC, the Mac SE did not exist in 1985; I was using a relatively new Fat
Mac in the summer of that year.

BTW, the Osborne didn't particularly have dot-matrix miracles. That was
the domain of printers like the Toshiba P321 and various Epson LQ models,
and such printers could be connected to CP/M machines like the Osbornes
and Kaypros, DOS machines like the IBM PC and Sharp PC 5000, and the Macs.
But in 1985 I think the only dot matrix printers were the 9-pin variety,
which weren't all that conducive to readable Latin with diacritics, let
alone Chinese or Arabic typesetting. The P321 was one of the first 24-pin
models, and I think it came out in 1987 or maybe late 1986.

Peter Constable

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Peter Kirk

2003-08-19 22:39:46 UTC

Permalink

Post by Kenneth Whistler

Might it help to point people to the list of members at
http://www.unicode.org/consortium/memblogo.html? By no means all US or
international corporations, especially among the associates.
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

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Ostermueller, Erik

2003-08-19 21:49:46 UTC

Permalink

Does anyone know if Metacode (http://www.cs.fit.edu/~satkin/docs/dissertation.pdf) ever had any momentum?

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