Handwritten EURO sign

Post by Marion Gunn
I wonder if any Unicoders have seen the handwritten EURO sign which differs
substantially from the usual computer-generated kind?

I have seen a C with an equals sign inside it not touching the C.

Post by Marion Gunn
The one on the banknotes (lefthanded Crescent Moon with double bar) is
quite unlike one used around here (rounded reversed digit THREE with double
bar).

That sounds like a script capital E with a double bar. You may find
the discussion at
http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/euroglyph.html of interest.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Marco Cimarosti

2003-02-07 16:35:39 UTC

Post by Marion Gunn
I wonder if any Unicoders have seen the handwritten EURO sign
which differs substantially from the usual computer-generated
kind?

In Italy, it is becoming common to see a sort of left parenthesis crossed by
a small Z.

Notice that this is very similar to a common handwritten forms of the lira
symbol ("£"): a vertical line crossed by a small Z.

_ Marco

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Eric Muller

2003-02-07 17:14:50 UTC

The latest issue of Baseline (www.baselinemagazine.com) has an article
on the Euro. I did not read it, so I don't know if it speaks of
handwritten forms.

Sign of the times: the euro currency symbol by Conor Mangat.

Eric.

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin

2003-08-04 14:13:17 UTC

Post by Marion Gunn
I wonder if any Unicoders have seen the handwritten EURO sign which
differs substantially from the usual computer-generated kind?

I noticed a hand written euro sign with wavy strokes, consistently used
by a person who is the chief accountant of an organizazion where I hold
also a managing position (this meaning that I see a lot of these signs).

The person in question is a retired Portuguese Air Force technical
officer, who had a great deal of contact with british engineers. I note
that his pound sign is similarly stricken.

Attached two examples of this glyph, composed using Times New Roman, and
also the refered pound sign U+00A3 (which is not distinguishable from
U+20A4, as both have two strokes.)

I may scan samples of the original, if there is interest.

-- ____.
António MARTINS-Tuválkin, | ()|
<***@tuvalkin.web.pt> |####|
R. Laureano de Oliveira, 64 r/c esq. |
PT-1885-050 MOSCAVIDE (LRS) Não me invejo de quem tem |
+351 934 821 700 carros, parelhas e montes |
http://www.tuvalkin.web.pt/bandeira/ só me invejo de quem bebe |
http://pagina.de/bandeiras/ a água em todas as fontes |
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Doug Ewell

2003-08-05 15:55:14 UTC

Post by Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin
I noticed a hand written euro sign with wavy strokes, consistently
used by a person who is the chief accountant of an organizazion where
I hold also a managing position (this meaning that I see a lot of
these signs).

Any symbol that looks remotely like a C with two (nearly) horizontal
cross-strokes, appearing before a numeric value, will surely be
recognized as a euro sign. This will only increase as time goes by.

The original legislative attempt to dictate the exact proportions (and
even color) of the euro sign, regardless of the font in use, was just
silly.

-Doug Ewell
Fullerton, California
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Michael Everson

2003-08-05 16:19:24 UTC

Post by Doug Ewell
The original legislative attempt to dictate the exact proportions (and
even color) of the euro sign, regardless of the font in use, was just
silly.

That is very old history, as detailed on my website
(http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/euroglyph.html). More
horrifying is the idiotic "euro is immune to grammar" error which
continues to be broadcast daily by our television and radio stations,
all because people with power lacked the moral courage to say "oops,
yeah, that was the wrong interpretation of the Directive which was
intended to ensure clean typography". Sigh.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Pim Blokland

2003-08-05 21:35:28 UTC

Post by Michael Everson
More
horrifying is the idiotic "euro is immune to grammar" error which
continues to be broadcast daily by our television and radio

stations,

Post by Michael Everson
all because people with power lacked the moral courage to say

"oops,

Post by Michael Everson
yeah, that was the wrong interpretation of the Directive which was
intended to ensure clean typography". Sigh.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Pim Blokland

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Michael Everson

2003-08-05 21:51:16 UTC

Post by Pim Blokland
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

You are lucky not having to put up with bad English like "five euro
and six cent", living in the Netherlands and speaking Dutch as you
do. See http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro if you wish to learn
more about a disaster in language "planning".
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-05 21:57:01 UTC

Post by Pim Blokland
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

The Irish authorities have adopted the extremely non-English habit of
saying "30 euro and 5 cent" instead of the natural and correct "30 euros
and 5 cents", as if English were German. This style is required in
legislation, but there is no reason to use it in common life.

Michael is conducting a one-man crusade to bring this sociolinguistic
nightmare to an end, so far without success.
--
Do NOT stray from the path! John Cowan <***@reutershealth.com>
--Gandalf http://www.ccil.org/~cowan

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin

2003-08-05 17:59:36 UTC

Post by Doug Ewell
Any symbol that looks remotely like a C with two (nearly) horizontal
cross-strokes, appearing before a numeric value,

Actually, most people here use it *after* the number. Which is only
logical, if we follow speech, common sence and the International System
of Measures and Weights. However I did read a big and glossy style
manual about the euro sign back in 2001 and nothing was said about its
reccomended placement respective to the number. (Let alone the validity
of things like k, c etc.)

OTOH, in my previous job as "websmith" (I wasn't really "designing"
anything, just HTML) for a banking software company, I used the dollar
cent symbol U+00A2 for euro cents and nobody even raised a brow about it
(this was in mid-2001). The particular set of screen interfaces thus
composed were part of a project that went belly up sometime later
(already in production stage, dont blame me!), but it might have been
"inherited" by other projects...

-- ____.
António MARTINS-Tuválkin, | ()|
<***@tuvalkin.web.pt> |####|
R. Laureano de Oliveira, 64 r/c esq. |
PT-1885-050 MOSCAVIDE (LRS) Não me invejo de quem tem |
+351 934 821 700 carros, parelhas e montes |
http://www.tuvalkin.web.pt/bandeira/ só me invejo de quem bebe |
http://pagina.de/bandeiras/ a água em todas as fontes |

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

James H. Cloos Jr.

2003-08-05 19:24:56 UTC

Anto'nio> (Let alone the validity of things
Anto'nio> like k€, c€ etc.)

I'm sure things like m€, k€, M€ and even G€ will come into use,
though I expect more will use them in front of the digits.

I certainly use m$, k$ et al, and regulary see others use them.

-JimC

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Stefan Persson

2003-08-05 20:54:50 UTC

Post by James H. Cloos Jr.
Anto'nio> (Let alone the validity of things
Anto'nio> like k€, c€ etc.)
I'm sure things like m€, k€, M€ and even G€ will come into use,
though I expect more will use them in front of the digits.
I certainly use m$, k$ et al, and regulary see others use them.

m€ and m$ would be millieuros and millidollars. How could anyone need
anything like that? And why use c$ and c€, wouldn't ¢ be just as good?

Stefan

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

James H. Cloos Jr.

2003-08-05 23:26:02 UTC

Stefan> m€ and m$ would be millieuros and millidollars. How could
Stefan> anyone need anything like that?

On this side of the pond, fuel prices per gallon are quoted in m$;
I presume they quote m$ per Litre in CA, though it has been long
enough that I cannot be sure what I remember about ON stations....

Presorted bulk mail in the states is priced such that the per-item
rates are not integral cents; you can even buy stamps at rates like
14.xxx ¢. I could see people discussing those using m$ or even µ$.

However, the specific places *I* used m$ were in micropayment
discussions.

Stefan> And why use c$ and c€, wouldn't ¢ be just as good?

You'll not I didn’t use centi.

-JimC

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Philippe Verdy

2003-08-06 10:12:45 UTC

Post by Stefan Persson

Post by James H. Cloos Jr.

"Anto'nio" == Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin

Certainly not: the placement of the currency unit symbol or multiple is language dependant, and the same local practices are used with the euro, as the one used for pre-euro currencies. In fact, the position of the currency unit and decimal separator or placement of the negative sign depends mostly of the current locale (language/region) and not on the indicated currency, so this convention is applied locally for *all* currency units.

Using the cent sign is mostly US specific and the symbol is not recognized as such in most European countries, so the cent sign is bound directly to the dollar. Using "c€" would be certainly better recognized as a cent of a euro rather than the cent sign. Such things may change in the future, but for now there's no commonly recognized symbold for the cent of a euro.

For example, here in France where the cent of a euro is named "centime" (plural "centimes") rather than "cent" which is written and read exactly like the number "cent" (100), small prices like phone call rates are written and pronounced like this "1,2 centimes/minute" or written "0,012 €/min", or "1,2 ct/min". There is NO symbol for the cent of a euro, even in ads which prefer an abbreviation like "ct", previously used to designate a "centime" of the french franc and now used to designate a "centime" of the euro.

Post by Stefan Persson

Post by James H. Cloos Jr.
I certainly use m$, k$ et al, and regulary see others use them.

m€ and m$ would be millieuros and millidollars. How could anyone need
anything like that? And why use c$ and c€, wouldn't ¢ be just as good?

The millieuros could be used, but it is not a natural sub-unit, and "c€" would be more appropriate if it was recognized. For now the abbreviation "ct" is much more common. On the opposite, the multiples "k€" (1 000,00 €) or "M€" (1 000 000,00 €) are quite common in informal business documents, and "G€" is quite rare.

However these unit multiples are illegal in contractual documents and legal forms where only the "€" symbol or the fully spelled amount is acceptable; some legal documents require to use both the numeric form with the "€" symbol or "EUR" and the spelled amount both written within the same locale convention, for example in French: "dix-huit centimes par minute (0,18 €/min)" or "société anonyme au capital de deux millions huit cent mille euros (2 800 000 €)"
--
Philippe.
Spams non tolérés: tout message non sollicité sera
rapporté à vos fournisseurs de services Internet.

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin

2003-08-13 23:52:26 UTC

I'm sure things like m, k, M and even G will come into use,
though I expect more will use them in front of the digits.

Perhaps, but that would be incorrect, methinks: Using SI preffixes
implies that one is adopting the said unit (the euro, in this case) as
if it were a SI unit itself -- and thus all other formal rules of the SI
would apply. This includes the rule about (number)+(nbsp)+(unit symbol).

Post by Philippe Verdy
the placement of the currency unit symbol or multiple is language
dependant, and the same local practices are used with the euro, as the
one used for pre-euro currencies.

You mean that Dutch should write one euro as "1,- ", while Portuguese
as "100", and perhaps British as " 1.00"?... It may be the case, but
I'd found that a bad idea and worth fighting against.

Some habits are indeed language dependant, but some others are just
tradition (some of it imposed as logic and correct decades ago, like
compulsive caseless singular for SI units in speech), and should not
necessarily apply.

After all the euro is a common currency and its figures should be
written in a common way.

Post by Philippe Verdy
In fact, the position of the currency unit and decimal separator or
placement of the negative sign depends mostly of the current locale
(language/region) and not on the indicated currency, so this
convention is applied locally for *all* currency units.

Nope, this is not true: While for any Portuguese the logical and usual
way to express "one escudo" is (was) "1$00", it would be not only
ridiculous but even not understandable to write one pound as "1£00" or
even less one dollar as "1$00". I'm sure this applies to other "locales"
as well.

Post by Philippe Verdy
Using the cent sign is mostly US specific and the symbol is not
recognized as such in most European countries, so the cent sign is
bound directly to the dollar.

Perhaps, but any one outside Portugal would say the same about "$",
while (as recently reported on this list), this symbol has been used for
the escudo from 1911 to 2001 and its semantics in current portuguese
society is "money" and not any specific currency.

The "$" symbol is used also in Cape Verde and possibly will be used in
East Timor for local currency, adding to its trivial usage in Australia
and New Zealand (at least).

If the "dollar sign" can be used for currencies other than the USD, even
for some which name is not even "dollar", then I suppose there is a
theoreitical possiblity that it may be used as a symbol of euro cent
(though I personally prefer "c").

Post by Philippe Verdy
For example, here in France where the cent of a euro is named
"centime" (plural "centimes") rather than "cent"

In Portugal, "cêntimo" (officialy and in practice). It seems that the
changelessness of this name was less severely enforced than the euro's.

-- ____.
António MARTINS-Tuválkin, | ()|
<***@tuvalkin.web.pt> |####|
R. Laureano de Oliveira, 64 r/c esq. |
PT-1885-050 MOSCAVIDE (LRS) Não me invejo de quem tem |
+351 934 821 700 carros, parelhas e montes |
http://www.tuvalkin.web.pt/bandeira/ só me invejo de quem bebe |
http://pagina.de/bandeiras/ a água em todas as fontes |

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-14 04:24:43 UTC

Post by Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin
Some habits are indeed language dependant, but some others are just
tradition (some of it imposed as logic and correct decades ago, like
compulsive caseless singular for SI units in speech), and should not
necessarily apply.

"Compulsive caseless singular"? That *is* language dependent. In
English, nothing is grammatical except singular with 1, plural with
any other value. It's true that the *abbreviation* isn't marked for
singular vs. plural, but you said "in speech".

You just can't say "four meter" in English; it has to be "four meters".

Post by Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin
The "$" symbol is used also in Cape Verde and possibly will be used in
East Timor for local currency, adding to its trivial usage in Australia
and New Zealand (at least).

Anguilla, Antigua and Barbuda, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Bermuda,
Brunei Darussalam, Canada, Cayman Islands, Dominica, Ecuador, Fiji,
Grenada, Guyana, Hong Kong, Jamaica, Kiribati, Liberia, Micronesia,
Montserrat, Namibia, Nauru, Niue, Norfolk Island, Palau, Panama,
Pitcairn, St. Kitts and Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent & Grenadines,
Singapore, Solomon Islands, Taiwan, Tokelau, Trinidad and Tobago,
Turks and Caicos, Tuvalu.

Not all these countries have their own currencies.

There are surely other countries that use $ as their currency symbol
even though their currency is not called "dollar".

Post by Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin
In Portugal, "cêntimo" (officialy and in practice). It seems that the
changelessness of this name was less severely enforced than the euro's.

"Lepton" in Greek was accepted from the beginning.
--
And through this revolting graveyard of the universe the muffled, maddening
beating of drums, and thin, monotonous whine of blasphemous flutes from
inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond Time; the detestable pounding
and piping whereunto dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic
tenebrous ultimate gods -- the blind, voiceless, mindless gargoyles whose soul
is Nyarlathotep. (Lovecraft) John Cowan|***@reutershealth.com|ccil.org/~cowan

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Michael Everson

2003-08-14 16:54:52 UTC

Post by John Cowan
There are surely other countries that use $ as their currency symbol
even though their currency is not called "dollar".

Such as Mexico, where $ means "peso".

Post by Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin
In Portugal, "cêntimo" (officialy and in practice). It seems that the
changelessness of this name was less severely enforced than the euro's.

Except in Ireland, though the struggle continues.

Post by John Cowan
"Lepton" in Greek was accepted from the beginning.

"Leptó" pl "leptá".

Post by John Cowan
And through this revolting graveyard of the
universe the muffled, maddening beating of
drums, and thin, monotonous whine of blasphemous
flutes from inconceivable, unlighted chambers
beyond Time; the detestable pounding and piping
whereunto dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly
the gigantic tenebrous ultimate gods -- the
blind, voiceless, mindless gargoyles whose soul
is Nyarlathotep.

Now that takes me back....
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter Kirk

2003-08-14 17:33:17 UTC

Post by John Cowan
"Lepton" in Greek was accepted from the beginning.

"Leptó" pl "leptá".

The same word as the original widow's mite (Mark 12:42). Probably worth
even less now!
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin

2003-08-16 20:22:35 UTC

"Compulsive caseless singular"? That *is* language dependent.

It is -- but I twisted my words less than my reasoning: I meant that
*even things clearly language dependent*, like case and number, were
(still are) legislated as part of the SI (in terms that SI units should
be always nominative singular), and yet widely ignored.

Post by John Cowan
You just can't say "four meter" in English; it has to be "four
meters".

Yet, according to the SI, you should. Actually, we joked about a 10th
grade Physics teacher who would say (in Portuguese) «fifty kilogram» in
class and «fifty kilos» in the corridor.

-- ____.
António MARTINS-Tuválkin, | ()|
<***@tuvalkin.web.pt> |####|
R. Laureano de Oliveira, 64 r/c esq. |
PT-1885-050 MOSCAVIDE (LRS) Não me invejo de quem tem |
+351 934 821 700 carros, parelhas e montes |
http://www.tuvalkin.web.pt/bandeira/ só me invejo de quem bebe |
http://pagina.de/bandeiras/ a água em todas as fontes |

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Philippe Verdy

2003-08-17 04:51:41 UTC

From: "Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin" <***@tuvalkin.web.pt>
To: <***@unicode.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)

"Compulsive caseless singular"? That *is* language dependent.

Post by John Cowan
You just can't say "four meter" in English; it has to be "four meters".

Yet, according to the SI, you should. Actually, we joked about a 10th
grade Physics teacher who would say (in Portuguese) «fifty kilogram» in
class and «fifty kilos» in the corridor.

SI units already have several names, which are language dependant.
the English "meter" is a French "mètre" (which also has the plural form
"mètres" according to the French grammar and all dictionnaries,
including the official terminology based on the historic Dictionnary
of the French Academy.) I bet that Japanese also writes "meter"
phonetically with a square Katakana symbol (ME-TE-RU?), and that
many languages include their translation of this basic unit.

The SI system is fully described and maintained by the French
"Bureau International des Poids et Mesures" (http://www.bipm.fr/)
under the International Organization of the Convention of the Meter
signed in Paris in 1875, modified in 1921, last amended in 1998 and
2000.

In 1997, 48 countries had adhered to this convention:

- In Americas & the Caribbeans:
Argentina, Brasil, Canada, Chile, Dominican Rep., Mexico, Uruguay,
Venezuela, USA,

- In Western Europe:
Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy,
Norway, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom,

- In Central & Eastern Europe:
Bulgaria, Czech Rep., Hungria, Poland, Romania, Russian Federation,
Slovakia,

- In Africa:
South Africa, Cameroun, Egypt

- In West-Central Asia:
India, Indonesia, Iran, Israel, Pakistan, Turkey,

- In East Asia:
China, Korean Rep., Korean Dem. Rep., Japan, Singapore,
Thailand,

- In the Pacific:
Australia, New Zealand.

All "big" countries (notably the G8) are members, and most
others have already accepted to apply it for international
interchange (notably all the other WTO members, and the
missing Luxembourg in the E.U.).

Note that USA, UK, Australia and New Zealand are members,
even if they often can use legally or most usually the British
system (miles, weight pounds, gallons, degrees Fahrenheit...)

The basic French names, their symbols, are listed here on the
previous web site:
http://www.bipm.fr/fra/3_SI/base_units.html
The English names are listed here too.

And the official 1998 text is here, with its 2000 supplement:
http://www.bipm.fr/pdf/brochure-si.pdf (French, official)
http://www.bipm.fr/pdf/si-brochure.pdf (English)
http://www.bipm.fr/pdf/si-supplement2000.pdf (French & English)

It describes the convention, the unit system, its names, symbols,
prefixes.
Prefixes are defined between 10^24 and 10^-24 (extended in 1958)
There are some references to undimensional units defined in ISO 31,
which will be integrated later in SI.

It is translated officially in English since 1985.
This brochure is also translated into: german, english, bulgarish,
chinese, korean, spanish, japanese, portuguese, romanian, and
czech.

For the English version, visit:
http://www.bipm.fr/enus/3_SI/si.html
notably its brochure:

Note however that currency units are *not* SI units as they
have no stable definition and they are not universally
convertible (each currency defines its own measure system)

One note finally: the term "degree kelvin" and the symbol "°K"
was used in the SI before 1968...

Philippe.
Les messages non sollicités (spams) ne sont pas tolérés.
Tout abus sera signalé automatiquement à vos fournisseurs de service.

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter Kirk

2003-08-17 16:23:06 UTC

Post by Philippe Verdy
Note that USA, UK, Australia and New Zealand are members,
even if they often can use legally or most usually the British
system (miles, weight pounds, gallons, degrees Fahrenheit...)

USA and UK do use this alternative system, except that the US gallon is
different from the British one (exactly 20% smaller I think), but
Australia and New Zealand don't. I saw no sign of any of these
measurements in either of the latter countries, except for a few very
old signs using miles.
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-17 17:18:44 UTC

Post by Peter Kirk
USA and UK do use this alternative system, except that the US gallon is
different from the British one (exactly 20% smaller I think),

For the record, it's true that the Imperial gallon has 20 fluid ounces
and the Fred Flintstone gallon only 16, *but* it's also true that
U.S. fluid ounces are about 4% bigger than Imperial ones. So in fact
a U.S. gallon is about 83% of an Imperial one. Quarts and pints are
corresponding.
--
"There is no real going back. Though I John Cowan
may come to the Shire, it will not seem ***@reutershealth.com
the same; for I shall not be the same. http://www.reutershealth.com
I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?" --Frodo

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-17 20:13:56 UTC

Post by John Cowan
For the record, it's true that the Imperial gallon has 20 fluid ounces
and the Fred Flintstone gallon only 16, [...]

Quite a small gallon. The one I use has 128 fluid ounces.

Arrgh. I've actually made this mistake publicly before. Of course it's
the *pint* (8 pints to a gallon) that is 16 or 20 fluid ounces.

Such is the confusion inherent in the Flintstone system.

Indeed.
--
John Cowan <***@reutershealth.com>
http://www.reutershealth.com http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
.e'osai ko sarji la lojban.
Please support Lojban! http://www.lojban.org

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Michael Everson

2003-08-14 16:50:49 UTC

Post by Philippe Verdy
Using the cent sign is mostly US specific and the symbol is not
recognized as such in most European countries, so the cent sign is
bound directly to the dollar.

If the "dollar sign" can be used for currencies other than the USD, even
for some which name is not even "dollar", then I suppose there is a
theoreitical possiblity that it may be used as a symbol of euro cent
(though I personally prefer "c*").

There is no reason that the noble ¢ cent sign
should not be used for the European currency.
Personally I always use it, because "2¢" looks
like "two cents" and "2c" looks like "two cee".

In Ireland of course when we used pence we wrote "2p" and said "two pee".
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter Kirk

2003-08-14 17:28:37 UTC

Post by Michael Everson
In Ireland of course when we used pence we wrote "2p" and said "two pee".

And we still do in the UK!
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

James H. Cloos Jr.

2003-08-14 17:23:17 UTC

JimC> I'm sure things like m€, k€, M€ and even G€ will come into use,
JimC> though I expect more will use them in front of the digits.

Anto'nio> Perhaps, but that would be incorrect, methinks: Using SI
Anto'nio> preffixes implies that one is adopting the said unit (the
Anto'nio> euro, in this case) as if it were a SI unit itself -- and
Anto'nio> thus all other formal rules of the SI would apply. This
Anto'nio> includes the rule about (number)+(nbsp)+(unit symbol).

They aren’t really SI preficies in this context. Milli, centi, kilo,
mega and giga (at least) have part of the global lexicon; terra is
not far behind (especially if disk sizes continue to grow).

They are being used more as metric prefices than as SI prefices.

-JimC

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin

2003-08-16 20:24:02 UTC

On 2003.08.14, 00:52, Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin

Post by Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin
If the "dollar sign" can be used for currencies other than the USD,
even for some which name is not even "dollar", then I suppose there is
a theoreitical possiblity that it may be used as a symbol of euro cent
(though I personally prefer "c").

Ooops! Here I meant rather that «If the "dollar sign" can be used for
currencies »...« then the *cent sign* may be used as a symbol of euro
cent». Sorry again!

-- ____.
António MARTINS-Tuválkin, | ()|
<***@tuvalkin.web.pt> |####|
R. Laureano de Oliveira, 64 r/c esq. |
PT-1885-050 MOSCAVIDE (LRS) Não me invejo de quem tem |
+351 934 821 700 carros, parelhas e montes |
http://www.tuvalkin.web.pt/bandeira/ só me invejo de quem bebe |
http://pagina.de/bandeiras/ a água em todas as fontes |

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Pim Blokland

2003-08-06 07:35:39 UTC

Post by Michael Everson
You are lucky not having to put up with bad English like "five

euro

Post by Michael Everson
and six cent", living in the Netherlands and speaking Dutch as you
do.

Funny. In our language, the euro behaves just as the guilder always
did, that is, the very same as what you call "bad English". We can
say "five euro and six cent" as well.
However, I presume this is caused by a grammar rule: you're not
talking about the coins, but about an amount of money. So if I say
I've got 5 euro in my pocket, I mean an amount totalling to € 5.-.
And if I say I've got 5 euros, I mean 5 of the coins.

But you'll probably disagree, saying that it's alright with Dutch
being another language and such, and as we're extremely off topic by
now, I propose not continuing this thread on this list.
If you do want to argue, you know my email address.

Pim Blokland

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Marco Cimarosti

2003-08-14 14:12:59 UTC

Post by Philippe Verdy
the placement of the currency unit symbol or multiple is language
dependant, and the same local practices are used with the

euro, as the

Post by Philippe Verdy
one used for pre-euro currencies.

You mean that Dutch should write one euro as "1,- EUR", while Portuguese
as "1EUR00", and perhaps British as "EUR 1.00"?... It may be the case, but
I'd found that a bad idea and worth fighting against.

Why? Different countries always used different characters as decimal or
"grouping" separators for numbers.

The Italian for "one and a half euros" is "uno virgola cinquanta euro"
(where "virgola" means "comma"). Should we say "comma" and write a dot!?

Post by Philippe Verdy
After all the euro is a common currency and its figures should be
written in a common way.

Why?

In most cases, it is: amounts in foreign currency are normally formatted
according to local conventions. E.g. a price in US$ on an Italian magazine
would probably be formatted as "$2.345,50", not "$2,345.50" or "2,345$50¢".

Post by Philippe Verdy
Using the cent sign is mostly US specific and the symbol is not
recognized as such in most European countries, so the cent sign is
bound directly to the dollar.

[...] then I suppose there is a
theoreitical possiblity that it may be used as a symbol of euro cent
(though I personally prefer "cEUR").

The problem is not *which* symbol to use for cent: it is the concept itself
that cents may need a symbol which is not familiar in most EU countries.

I guess that Ireland is the only euro-zone country where you can see a price
expressed in cents, such as "55 cents". In most other countries of Europe,
the same amount would be expressed as "0.55 euros".

_ Marco

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Patrick Andries

2003-08-14 16:24:29 UTC

----- Message d'origine -----

Post by Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin
After all the euro is a common currency and its figures should be
written in a common way.

Why?

Very good question. Multilingual countries like Belgium or Canada already
were or are writing the same amounts using different cultural conventions
depending on the language of the text where they appear.

Otherwise, I'm personally quite flexible if only one convention is used and
imposed upon all, as long as it is the French one ;-)

P. Andries
- o - 0 - o -
Unicode en français
http://pages.infinit.net/hapax
(Traduction de l'UTR 20 en cours)

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Philippe Verdy

2003-08-14 22:34:41 UTC

Post by Anto'nio Martins-Tuva'lkin
After all the euro is a common currency and its figures should be
written in a common way.

Why?

Why, too? This is absolutely not required by the european directives,
which has already stated different names for the subdivision for each
language, and accepted distinct plural forms, as well as using the
national
conventions which were already in use to designate amounts in local
currency (now the euro) and foreign currencies (like the USD). As
local conventions for foreign currencies were not affected by the Euro,
they are still valid, and did not have to change.

In most cases, it is: amounts in foreign currency are normally

formatted

Post by Marco Cimarosti
according to local conventions. E.g. a price in US$ on an Italian magazine
would probably be formatted as "$2.345,50", not "$2,345.50" or

"2,345$50¢".

And in France, "2 345,50$" (we already use the term "virgule" in ALL
numeric
designations, and I don't see why we should write it with a dot for
amounts
in euros...)

Post by Philippe Verdy
Using the cent sign is mostly US specific and the symbol is not
recognized as such in most European countries, so the cent sign is
bound directly to the dollar.

[...] then I suppose there is a
theoreitical possiblity that it may be used as a symbol of euro cent
(though I personally prefer "cEUR").

The problem is not *which* symbol to use for cent: it is the concept itself
that cents may need a symbol which is not familiar in most EU

countries.

Post by Marco Cimarosti
I guess that Ireland is the only euro-zone country where you can see a price
expressed in cents, such as "55 cents". In most other countries of Europe,
the same amount would be expressed as "0.55 euros".

In France we use the translation "centime" for amounts in cents, notably
in
many phone rates (soon we will need to use "millimes" for local phone
rates
if prices are continuing to go lower, as they are now typically at
0,02€/min,
almost always announced like "2 centimes par minute" with some operators
pricing at 0,01€/min, and our phone billings, calculated per second
instead
of minutes are already using detailed prices in thousands of euros.)

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Kenneth Whistler

2003-08-14 18:32:41 UTC

Post by James H. Cloos Jr.
They aren’t really SI preficies in this context. Milli, centi, kilo,
mega and giga (at least) have part of the global lexicon; terra is

^^^^^

Post by James H. Cloos Jr.
not far behind (especially if disk sizes continue to grow).

Does that refer to physical disk sizes growing to global scale, or disk
contents sufficiently capacious to encompass the entire store of
terran information?

For myself, I think I would be satisfied with a mere 1 terabyte
capacity for my own disk. ;-)

--Ken

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

James H. Cloos Jr.

2003-08-14 19:04:50 UTC

terra is not far behind (especially if disk sizes continue to grow).

Kenneth> Does that refer to physical disk sizes growing to global
Kenneth> scale, or disk contents sufficiently capacious to encompass
Kenneth> the entire store of terran information?

Touché. ʭʭʭʭʭ (That is U+02AD for the utf8-impaired.)

Does anyone have a good limerick lambasting typos?

Or a haiku? ( 川柳, yes? )

-JimC

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Rick McGowan

2003-08-14 20:09:21 UTC

Jim Cloos asked

Post by James H. Cloos Jr.
Or a haiku?

As long as we're off topic... A Haiku. Picking up on your 7 syllables, as
quoted by Ken, how about:

Unfortunately
Terra is not far behind
the eight ball of God

Hmmmm... Well, that certainly lacks a seasonal suggestion...

$B;M5(L5$7$N(B
$B;m$r5-O?$9$k(B
$BGO</$JCx<T(B
$B9=$o$J$/$^$?(B
$BI.$r?6$k$+$J(B

Rick

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jon Hanna

2003-08-15 14:15:12 UTC

Post by Kenneth Whistler

They arenâ€™t really SI preficies in this context. Milli, centi, kilo,
mega and giga (at least) have part of the global lexicon; terra is

^^^^^

not far behind (especially if disk sizes continue to grow).

Does that refer to physical disk sizes growing to global scale, or disk
contents sufficiently capacious to encompass the entire store of
terran information?

Or both <http://terraserver-usa.com/About.aspx?n=AboutTech>.

I'd always considered the use of SI prefixes to be slang, first amongst technical communities such as hackers (certainly its use as such is mentioned in jargon.txt) and then later the business community, so if I'm right not only has this thread gone into off-topic standards but it has completely left standards altogether.

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Marion Gunn

2003-08-15 10:47:44 UTC

Not pausing to wonder why on earth this list <***@unicode.org> is
currently discussing my country's currencies, only to wonder if anyone
here knows whether Ireland is the only EU country which has to use two -
in Belfast we use Pounds Sterling (£), and in Dublin euro ().
mg

ps.
To complicate/simplify matters further: I am recently returned from an
academic conference in Scotland where I was invited to give a paper, and
a few days ago just added £10 of my leftover UK currency from that trip
to a handful of euro to buy something here.
mg

--
Marion Gunn * EGT (Estab.1991) * http://www.egt.ie *
fiosruithe/enquiries: ***@egt.ie * ***@egt.ie *

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Michael Everson

2003-08-15 11:12:21 UTC

Post by Marion Gunn
Not pausing to wonder why on earth this list
country's currencies, only to wonder if anyone
here knows whether Ireland is the only EU
country which has to use two - in Belfast we use
Pounds Sterling (£), and in Dublin euro (*).

Ireland, as a member of the European Monetary
Union, is one of the countries which uses euros,
which is why you use them in Dublin. The United
Kingdom is not a member of the EMU, which is why
you use pounds in Belfast.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

J***@aculab.com

2003-08-15 11:16:11 UTC

What's more, in the Isle of Man (which is situated between Britain and
Ireland) they accept pretty much any currency under the sun. You can pay for
things in a mixture of pounds sterling, euro, US dollars, whatever. They
don't care. Shops will just take anything, and if necessary make up an
exchange rate on the spot. The reason they don't care is because they can
actually spend this mix anywhere _else_ on the Isle of Man.

A very enlightened attitude, I find.

Jill

-----Original Message-----
From: Marion Gunn [mailto:***@egt.ie]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 11:48 AM
To: ***@unicode.org
Subject: Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)

Not pausing to wonder why on earth this list <***@unicode.org> is
currently discussing my country's currencies, only to wonder if anyone
here knows whether Ireland is the only EU country which has to use two -
in Belfast we use Pounds Sterling (£), and in Dublin euro (EUR).
mg

ps.
To complicate/simplify matters further: I am recently returned from an
academic conference in Scotland where I was invited to give a paper, and
a few days ago just added £10 of my leftover UK currency from that trip
to a handful of euro to buy something here.
mg

--
Marion Gunn * EGT (Estab.1991) * http://www.egt.ie *
fiosruithe/enquiries: ***@egt.ie * ***@egt.ie *

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter Kirk

2003-08-15 12:24:55 UTC

Post by J***@aculab.com
What's more, in the Isle of Man (which is situated between Britain and
Ireland) they accept pretty much any currency under the sun. You can pay for
things in a mixture of pounds sterling, euro, US dollars, whatever. They
don't care. Shops will just take anything, and if necessary make up an
exchange rate on the spot. The reason they don't care is because they can
actually spend this mix anywhere _else_ on the Isle of Man.
A very enlightened attitude, I find.
Jill

Agreed. But it's not a member or part of the EU, or of the UK, like the
Channel Islands - which makes them all convenient tax havens. It is
self-governing, with the oldest Parliament in the world I understand.
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Philippe Verdy

2003-08-15 23:16:27 UTC

Post by Peter Kirk
Agreed. But it's not a member or part of the EU, or of the UK, like the
Channel Islands - which makes them all convenient tax havens. It is
self-governing, with the oldest Parliament in the world I understand.

I thought it was in Iceland...

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-16 02:47:18 UTC

Post by Philippe Verdy
I thought it was in Iceland...

The Alþingi was founded in 930, shortly after Iceland was settled.
In 1262, after the reception of Norwegian authority, it became mostly
the Icelandic high court, and the last vestige of legislative function
vanished in 1662. In 1800 it was abolished and not refounded until 1845.
It did not regain legislative authority until 1874.

The Tynwald Court of the Isle of Man, however, has functioned continuously
as a legislative assembly since at least 979. (The name "Tynwald"
is also Norse in origin: þingvollr 'assembly field'.)
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan ***@reutershealth.com
Be yourself. Especially do not feign a working knowledge of RDF where
no such knowledge exists. Neither be cynical about RELAX NG; for in
the face of all aridity and disenchantment in the world of markup,
James Clark is as perennial as the grass. --DeXiderata, Sean McGrath

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Philippe Verdy

2003-08-16 09:27:55 UTC

Post by Philippe Verdy
I thought it was in Iceland...

continuously

Post by John Cowan
as a legislative assembly since at least 979. (The name "Tynwald"
is also Norse in origin: þingvollr 'assembly field'.)

Thanks for the story.

I did not know that Iceland was ruled by Norway in its history.
Despite this, I had always been told that Iceland had been the
oldest democracy, but without details about its parlement.
May be there was another local democratic representation even
during the Norwegian authority on this far island.

May be many are confused by the fact that the Isle of Man is not
an independant country, even if has its own regional legislative
authority (also in other British Channel Islands), and is more or
less considered with the same status as other regional authorities
found in many countries (including Spain's regions, Germany's
Länder, UK's nations, US's states, Switzerland cantons...)

France had regional parlements before the 1789 revolution, but
they were ruled by the King, even though there were assemblies
with little power for the legislative and judiciary power, named
"Etats" (divided between in 3 between the clergy, nobility and
the rest of the people). Since Revolution, the National Assembly
was created formally by unifying the 3 Etats into 1 assembly
represented face to the King, before the Kingdom itself
was abolished. During the Empire or the short time of the
Restauration, the national representation was not redivided, and
even during the Empire, the power was recentralized, and all
regional rules were unified.

France has recreated its regional assemblies only very recently in
the last 80's, but with only a executive role, and the national law
prevails everywhere, with some arrangements for overseas territories
(but not in overseas departments and collectivity, working exactly
like in the metropolitan territory).

This is still true in Corsica since the very recent vote
which refused to give some autonomy to a regional assembly
with limited legislative power within the Republic (this caused
some problems with the constitution which states that the
Republic cannot be divided, and the the French law must apply
everywhere on the Republic).

In fact some overseas territories have voted to be assimilated more
as departments and not territories within the Republic (notably in
Mayotte, the last remaining French island in the independant but very
troubled Comores, or in Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon, both of them
going from a Territorial Collectivity status to a Departmental
Collectivity status). The term Collectivity is related to some
form of local administration allowing local arrangements
with bordering countries notably in terms of commercial
exchanges and people movements, without the need to refer
constantly to the national representation and governnent in Paris;
it is kept as these regions keep their formal right to independance
if this was voted there by referendum, without needing amending the
Constitution (this was the case for New Caledonia when a
new regional assembly was created and the aboriginal laws accepted
to rule in the administrative and judiciary domains, in a wait for a
future vote on independance).

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter Kirk

2003-08-16 10:01:48 UTC

Post by Philippe Verdy
May be many are confused by the fact that the Isle of Man is not
an independant country, even if has its own regional legislative
authority (also in other British Channel Islands), and is more or
less considered with the same status as other regional authorities
found in many countries (including Spain's regions, Germany's
Länder, UK's nations, US's states, Switzerland cantons...)

Absolutely not! The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands (i.e. separately
Jersey; and Guernsey which governs Alderney, Sark and Herm) have a very
different status from Scotland or Wales, and a very different status
from provinces of a federation or confederation. Their status is
actually more like that of Canada and Australia, independent countries
with the same monarch. They have no representation in the Parliament in
London. They are not part of the EU. Their external relations do come
under the government in London as a matter of convenience, and probably
for this reason they are not separate members of the UN. But they are no
more part of the UK than Monaco is part of France.

The French system, for better or for worse, is completely different.
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-16 02:24:19 UTC

Similar things used to happen in Luxembourg, I believe.

Post by J***@aculab.com
A very enlightened attitude, I find.

In 19th century California, it was common for things to cost 12.5
cents, although the U.S. has never made coins for this amount, nor for
0.5 cents either. To solve this problem, people used the following
arrangement: you could buy one such item with a quarter (25 cent coin)
and get a dime (10 cent coin) in change, or you could buy the item with
dime and get no change. Mark Twain, unsurprisingly, found a way to
beat the system: go to the Post Office and buy a 5-cent stamp, then
use the two dimes to buy two items.
--
"Kill Gorg)Bûn! Kill orc-folk! John Cowan
No other words please Wild Men. ***@reutershealth.com
Drive away bad air and darkness http://www.reutershealth.com
with bright iron!" --Gh)Bân-buri-Ghân http://www.ccil.org/~cowan

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Doug Ewell

2003-08-16 04:58:55 UTC

Post by John Cowan
In 19th century California, it was common for things to cost 12.5
cents, although the U.S. has never made coins for this amount, nor for
0.5 cents either.

The U.S. did indeed make half-cent coins, from 1793 through 1857.
However, they generally did not circulate outside of large East Coast
cities. Neither did one-cent coins, which were about 27 mm in diameter
until 1857 (roughly the size of a Sacagawea dollar). This resulted in
the dime/quarter pricing structure John described.

It seems strange that these coins did not circulate widely when you
consider how much one cent would buy in the 1850s.

U.S. postage stamps for ½ cent, 1½ cents, and 2½ cents were produced
well into the 20th century.

-Doug Ewell
Fullerton, California
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-16 05:08:44 UTC

Post by Doug Ewell

Post by John Cowan
In 19th century California, it was common for things to cost 12.5
cents, although the U.S. has never made coins for this amount, nor for
0.5 cents either.

The U.S. did indeed make half-cent coins, from 1793 through 1857.

Well, I guess this is my version of a troll, because I knew a) that
probably wasn't right and b) I was gonna get called on it.
--
John Cowan www.ccil.org/~cowan ***@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com
[P]olice in many lands are not complaining that local arrestees are insisting
on having their Miranda rights read to them, just like perps in American TV
cop shows. When it's explained to them that they are in a different country,
where those rights do not exist, they become outraged. --Neal Stephenson

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Rick McGowan

2003-08-17 21:06:06 UTC

John Cowan remarked...

Post by John Cowan
Of course it's
the *pint* (8 pints to a gallon) that is 16 or 20 fluid ounces.

Which explains to me why a pint of bitter in England seems quite so
enormous... well for a small Yank... ;-)

Rick

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-17 22:01:23 UTC

Post by Rick McGowan
Which explains to me why a pint of bitter in England seems quite so
enormous... well for a small Yank... ;-)

Yup. Hence also the Brit's complaint about the metric system: a liter
of beer is too much, half a liter isn't enough, but a pint, ah, that's
just right. The Imperial pint is .57 liters, whereas the Flintstone one
is only .47 liters.
--
John Cowan <***@reutershealth.com> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Raffiniert ist der Herrgott, aber boshaft ist er nicht.
--Albert Einstein

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Michael Everson

2003-08-17 22:16:56 UTC

Post by John Cowan
Yup. Hence also the Brit's complaint about the metric system: a liter
of beer is too much, half a liter isn't enough, but a pint, ah, that's
just right. The Imperial pint is .57 liters, whereas the Flintstone one
is only .47 liters.

A half-litre can of Guinness fits perfectly into the standard Irish
pint glass. I mean perfectly. I just poured one. :-)
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter Kirk

2003-08-17 22:45:05 UTC

A half-litre can of Guinness fits perfectly into the standard Irish
pint glass. I mean perfectly. I just poured one. :-)

Hence this Brit's complaint also about Irish beer. Lots of froth, lots
to chew on as well, but not much to drink! ;-)
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Doug Ewell

2003-08-18 02:48:42 UTC

Post by John Cowan
Yup. Hence also the Brit's complaint about the metric system: a
liter of beer is too much, half a liter isn't enough, but a pint, ah,
that's just right. The Imperial pint is .57 liters, whereas the
Flintstone one is only .47 liters.

A half-litre can of Guinness fits perfectly into the standard Irish
pint glass. I mean perfectly. I just poured one. :-)

Shouldn't a "pint" of beer be administratively fixed at 500 mL, just as
a "fifth" of liquor in America is now officially 750 mL? Seems like a
good task for an ISO working group.

-Doug Ewell
Fullerton, California
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-18 03:40:34 UTC

Post by Doug Ewell
Shouldn't a "pint" of beer be administratively fixed at 500 mL, just as
a "fifth" of liquor in America is now officially 750 mL? Seems like a
good task for an ISO working group.

Arrgh. Shall we return to a firkin of beer in London being one size,
a firkin of wine in London another, whereas in the rest of England a
firkin, of beer or wine indifferently, was still a third size?
Pints, unlike fifths, are in general use. Leave bad enough alone.
--
"They tried to pierce your heart John Cowan
with a Morgul-knife that remains in the http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
wound. If they had succeeded, you would http://www.reutershealth.com
become a wraith under the domination of the Dark Lord." --Gandalf

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Ted Hopp

2003-08-18 04:51:53 UTC

Post by Doug Ewell
Shouldn't a "pint" of beer be administratively fixed at 500 mL, just as
a "fifth" of liquor in America is now officially 750 mL? Seems like a
good task for an ISO working group.

Egads! THAT would be enough to drive a person to drink.

Ted

Ted Hopp, Ph.D.
ZigZag, Inc.
***@newSLATE.com
+1-301-990-7453

newSLATE is your personal learning workspace
...on the web at http://www.newSLATE.com/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Doug Ewell

2003-08-18 05:59:51 UTC

Post by Doug Ewell
Shouldn't a "pint" of beer be administratively fixed at 500 mL, just
as a "fifth" of liquor in America is now officially 750 mL? Seems
like a good task for an ISO working group.

Egads! THAT would be enough to drive a person to drink.

Thus promoting widespread use of the standard, an often-stated goal of
ISO.

OK, I'm done with this thread. Back to Unicode.

-Doug Ewell
Fullerton, California
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Philippe Verdy

2003-08-18 16:41:24 UTC

Post by Doug Ewell
Shouldn't a "pint" of beer be administratively fixed at
500 mL,

^^^^ 500 ml (lowercase for the official liter symbol)

Post by Doug Ewell
just as a "fifth" of liquor in America is now officially
750 mL?

^^^^ 750 ml (idem)

Post by Doug Ewell
Seems like a good task for an ISO working group.

Egads! THAT would be enough to drive a person to
drink.

^^^^
Do you mean "drunk" here? At least that person should not be
authorized to drive after 66 cl (or two 33cl bottles), exceeding
normally the maximum 0.5 g/l of alcoohol in blood, or 0.3 g/l
of expired air (French levels).
If one wants to use basic SI units, this means 0.5 kg/m3.

For a adult person of roughly 80kg (about 5 liters of blood),
this limit is 2.5 g of pure alcoohol, and with a beer at 6°,
this limit is roughly 41 g of beer if it was fully assimilated
(injected directly in the veins), but a normal absorbtion
is performed at roughly 10% in the instestinal area, going
to 410 g of beer, or 41 cl (just a little more than a 33 cl
bottle, this limit being exceeded with just 1 can of 50 cl...)

So for the police, any one that has just drunk a "pint" or a
"fifth" of beer is drunk and out of law if driving...

Philippe.
Les messages non sollicités (spams) ne sont pas tolérés.
Tout abus sera signalé automatiquement à vos fournisseurs de service.

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-18 19:35:39 UTC

Post by Ted Hopp
Egads! THAT would be enough to drive a person to
drink.

^^^^
Do you mean "drunk" here? At least that person should not be
authorized to drive after 66 cl (or two 33cl bottles),

"Drive [someone] to drink" means "frustrate or annoy [someone]
sufficiently that he begins to drink as a release", and has nothing to
do with automobiles.
--
John Cowan ***@reutershealth.com
At times of peril or dubitation, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Perform swift circular ambulation, http://www.reutershealth.com
With loud and high-pitched ululation.

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter Kirk

2003-08-18 10:21:29 UTC

Post by Doug Ewell

Post by John Cowan
Yup. Hence also the Brit's complaint about the metric system: a
liter of beer is too much, half a liter isn't enough, but a pint, ah,
that's just right. The Imperial pint is .57 liters, whereas the
Flintstone one is only .47 liters.

A half-litre can of Guinness fits perfectly into the standard Irish
pint glass. I mean perfectly. I just poured one. :-)

On the contrary! Let's administratively fix a half litre of beer as one
Imperial pint, and we can satisfy the guys in Brussels that we have gone
metric. They are unlikely to complain if they get a bit extra!
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

J***@aculab.com

2003-08-18 09:03:26 UTC

For what it's worth, in America, you spell it "meter"; in England, you spell
it "metre".
Jill

-----Original Message-----
From: Philippe Verdy [mailto:***@wanadoo.fr]
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 5:52 AM
To: ***@unicode.org
Subject: Re: Handwritten EURO sign (off topic?)

SI units already have several names, which are language dependant.
the English "meter" is ...

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

J***@aculab.com

2003-08-18 11:06:01 UTC

Personally, I don't see why we have to sell beer (or anything else for that
matter) in integer multiples of any kind of "units" at all. Why can't we
just bring an arbitrarily sized, partially full, glass to the bar and say to
the guy at the bar: "Could you fill it up to about HERE please?".

It's a good system. It works for petrol pumps. Nobody in England even
NOTICED when petrol pumps went metric, because it made bugger all difference
to the reality of how things worked.

What exactly is wrong with the notion of filling a British pint glass with
beer and charging it to the till as zero point something litres?

Jill

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Kirk [mailto:***@ntlworld.com]
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 11:21 AM
To: Doug Ewell; Unicode List
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements

Post by Doug Ewell

Post by John Cowan
Yup. Hence also the Brit's complaint about the metric system: a
liter of beer is too much, half a liter isn't enough, but a pint, ah,
that's just right. The Imperial pint is .57 liters, whereas the
Flintstone one is only .47 liters.

A half-litre can of Guinness fits perfectly into the standard Irish
pint glass. I mean perfectly. I just poured one. :-)

Peter Kirk

2003-08-18 11:46:51 UTC

Post by J***@aculab.com
Personally, I don't see why we have to sell beer (or anything else for that
matter) in integer multiples of any kind of "units" at all. Why can't we
just bring an arbitrarily sized, partially full, glass to the bar and say to
the guy at the bar: "Could you fill it up to about HERE please?".
It's a good system. It works for petrol pumps. Nobody in England even
NOTICED when petrol pumps went metric, because it made bugger all difference
to the reality of how things worked.
What exactly is wrong with the notion of filling a British pint glass with
beer and charging it to the till as zero point something litres?
Jill

Well, this would require fitting electronic meters (not metres! - two
quite different words in British English) to every beer tap. And I'm not
sure how well this would work in a bar packed with drunks fighting to be
served on a Saturday night...
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Marco Cimarosti

2003-08-19 09:51:24 UTC

Post by Doug Ewell
Shouldn't a "pint" of beer be administratively fixed at 500
mL, just as a "fifth" of liquor in America is now
officially 750 mL? Seems like a good task for an ISO
working group.

You could generalize it a bit: Alignment Of Metric And Imperial Units Whose
Difference Is So Small As To Be Pointless.

E.g., I never understood why on earth metres and yards should be kept
different. In a public park somewhere in UK or Ireland I have seen the
following sign:

TOILETS ------->
50 yds (45.72 m)

It must be a reeeeeally urgent need if one cares about those 3.28 metres...

_ Marco

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter Kirk

2003-08-19 10:49:24 UTC

Post by Doug Ewell
Shouldn't a "pint" of beer be administratively fixed at 500
mL, just as a "fifth" of liquor in America is now
officially 750 mL? Seems like a good task for an ISO
working group.

You could generalize it a bit: Alignment Of Metric And Imperial Units Whose
Difference Is So Small As To Be Pointless.

I assure you the beer drinkers of the UK and probably Ireland would
rise in revolt and burn down the European Parliament or some other
convenient scapegoat if you tried to serve them half litres or
Flintstone pints when they were expecting their full measure. 15%
difference, or whatever it is, is not trivial!

Post by Marco Cimarosti
E.g., I never understood why on earth metres and yards should be kept
different. In a public park somewhere in UK or Ireland I have seen the
TOILETS ------->
50 yds (45.72 m)
It must be a reeeeeally urgent need if one cares about those 3.28 metres...

After a few full pints of Guinness one will even care about the metre
that you left out! :-)
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Pim Blokland

2003-08-19 11:18:48 UTC

4.28 actually.
But are you serious about lengthening the yard to be the same size
as the meter?
Ha! Fat chance! You might as well suggest we abolish the yard
altogether!

Pim Blokland

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Michael Everson

2003-08-19 11:46:31 UTC

You might as well suggest we abolish the yard altogether!

What a superb idea.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-19 12:41:41 UTC

You might as well suggest we abolish the yard altogether!

What a superb idea.

'Sblood, nay! I love the metric system as well as any, but have no
desire to have my yard abolished.
--
"Do I contradict myself? John Cowan
Very well then, I contradict myself. ***@reutershealth.com
I am large, I contain multitudes. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
--Walt Whitman, _Leaves of Grass_ http://www.reutershealth.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Michael Everson

2003-08-19 12:48:46 UTC

You might as well suggest we abolish the yard altogether!

What a superb idea.

'Sblood, nay! I love the metric system as well as any, but have no
desire to have my yard abolished.

It shall pass the way of the cubit and the stadia....
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-19 14:39:31 UTC

Post by John Cowan
'Sblood, nay! I love the metric system as well as any, but have no
desire to have my yard abolished.

It shall pass the way of the cubit and the stadia....

Michael. Look up "yard" in that OED of yours. Then tell me again just
how much you wish to have it "abolished".
--
LEAR: Dost thou call me fool, boy? John Cowan
FOOL: All thy other titles http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
thou hast given away: ***@reutershealth.com
That thou wast born with. http://www.reutershealth.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Michael Everson

2003-08-19 16:14:29 UTC

Post by John Cowan
Michael. Look up "yard" in that OED of yours. Then tell me again just
how much you wish to have it "abolished".

It will be a great day when the US finally accepts and implements the
metric system.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-19 17:15:19 UTC

Post by John Cowan
Michael. Look up "yard" in that OED of yours. Then tell me again just
how much you wish to have it "abolished".

It will be a great day when the US finally accepts and implements the
metric system.

I agree entirely.
--
One Word to write them all, John Cowan <***@reutershealth.com>
One Access to find them, http://www.reutershealth.com
One Excel to count them all, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
And thus to Windows bind them. --Mike Champion

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Mark Davis

2003-08-19 18:12:50 UTC

Yes, I am sick and tired of dealing with this horrible non-decimal measurement
system the US has for time: the number of units per other unit vary all across
the board: 60..61 : 1, 60 : 1, 24 : 1, 28..31 : 1, 12 : 1, 365..366 : 1 --
awful. At least with inches, feet, and miles, the number of feet per mile don't
vary depending on which mile one is talking about!

I'll be so glad to shift to a metric system for time, as they use in Europe, so
we won't have to deal with this stuff any more. How could anyone prefer this to
a metric system?

Mark
__________________________________
http://www.macchiato.com
► “Eppur si muove” ◄

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Cowan" <***@reutershealth.com>
To: "Michael Everson" <***@evertype.com>
Cc: <***@unicode.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:15
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)

Post by John Cowan
Michael. Look up "yard" in that OED of yours. Then tell me again just
how much you wish to have it "abolished".

It will be a great day when the US finally accepts and implements the
metric system.

I agree entirely.
--
One Access to find them, http://www.reutershealth.com
One Excel to count them all, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
And thus to Windows bind them. --Mike Champion

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Carl W. Brown

2003-08-19 20:49:35 UTC

Mark,

Post by Mark Davis
Yes, I am sick and tired of dealing with this horrible
non-decimal measurement
system the US has for time: the number of units per other unit
vary all across
the board: 60..61 : 1, 60 : 1, 24 : 1, 28..31 : 1, 12 : 1,
365..366 : 1 --
awful. At least with inches, feet, and miles, the number of feet per mile don't
vary depending on which mile one is talking about!

However, just try to sort out a set of drill bits. 11/64 etc.

I also have a hard time remembering that a Hundredweight c.w.t is 112 pounds. I am glad that it is not in common usage.

But working on a house with feet, inches and fractions drives me absolutely crazy. At least with clocks you are not doing tremendous amounts of math to do anything. The only time when clocks are a problem is when you are dealing with multiple time zones.

Carl

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-19 21:29:50 UTC

Post by Carl W. Brown
I also have a hard time remembering that a Hundredweight c.w.t is
112 pounds. I am glad that it is not in common usage.

The Imperial cwt is indeed 112 lb, but the U.S. customary cwt remains 100 lb.

Post by Carl W. Brown
But working on a house with feet, inches and fractions drives me
absolutely crazy. At least with clocks you are not doing tremendous
amounts of math to do anything. The only time when clocks are a problem
is when you are dealing with multiple time zones.

A kilosec is a reasonable amount of time to wait for a late appointment
(in some countries, anyhow).

A megasec is enough time to do a small project.

If a marriage lasts a gigasec, it is doing very well.
--
There is / One art John Cowan <***@reutershealth.com>
No more / No less http://www.reutershealth.com
To do / All things http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
With art- / Lessness -- Piet Hein

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Carl W. Brown

2003-08-19 21:55:51 UTC

John,

Post by John Cowan
A kilosec is a reasonable amount of time to wait for a late appointment
(in some countries, anyhow).
A megasec is enough time to do a small project.
If a marriage lasts a gigasec, it is doing very well.

1 pictun = 20 baktun = 2,880,000 days = approx. 7885 years
1 calabtun = 20 pictun = 57,600,000 days = approx. 158,000 years
1 kinchiltun = 20 calabtun = 1,152,000,000 days = approx. 3 million years
1 alautun = 20 kinchiltun = 23,040,000,000 days = approx. 63 million years

The Mayans must have been very patient people.

Carl

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter Kirk

2003-08-19 22:11:41 UTC

Resending with the correct address...

Post by Carl W. Brown
Mark,

It drives me even more crazy when some of the things I need to work on
my house are in feet, some in yards, and some in metres. I measure
things up in metres then find what I am buying supplied in feet, or vice
versa. Well, I think it's all supposed to be metric, but it isn't.
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Kent Karlsson

2003-08-20 11:58:06 UTC

Post by Mark Davis
awful. At least with inches, feet, and miles, the number of
feet per mile don't
vary depending on which mile one is talking about!

A Danish mile is 7 km, a Swedish mile (a fairly popular
distance measure here) is 10 km, and an English mile is
a mere 1.6 km (approx.). So yes, the number of "feet" per
mile does vary depending on which mile one is talking
about (even when considering that the length of a "foot"
originally depended on who's foot was used to measure). ;-)

(Sorry for being OT)
/kent k

PS
Originally the Swedish mile was marginally longer than 10 km,
but via "nymil" (new mile) or "myriameter", the original term
mile (mil) was adopted for the metric adapted distance.

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter Kirk

2003-08-20 13:34:51 UTC

Post by Kent Karlsson

Post by Mark Davis
awful. At least with inches, feet, and miles, the number of
feet per mile don't
vary depending on which mile one is talking about!

Well, a Roman mile was originally a thousand (double) paces, which
depended on how long your legs were and how much of a hurry you were in.
It was standardised as marginally shorter than the English mile. I guess
English legs tended to be longer than Roman ones. But Swedish legs ... I
know many Swedes are tall, but not that much taller than us!

Your Swedish mile sounds more like what we call a league. From Websters

Post by Kent Karlsson
1. A measure of length or distance, varying in different countries
from about 2.4 to 4.6 English statute miles of 5.280 feet each, and
used (as a land measure) chiefly on the continent of Europe, and in
the Spanish parts of America. The marine league of England and the
United States is equal to three marine, or geographical, miles of 6080
feet each.
Note: The English land league is equal to three English statute
miles. The Spanish and French leagues vary in each country according
to usage and the kind of measurement to which they are applied. The
Dutch and German leagues contain about four geographical miles, or
about 4.6 English statute miles.

Thank goodness that most of these measurements are obsolete!
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Doug Ewell

2003-08-19 15:31:43 UTC

Post by John Cowan
'Sblood, nay! I love the metric system as well as any, but have no
desire to have my yard abolished.

It shall pass the way of the cubit and the stadia....

Not as long as educational materials for children continue to include
conversion tables with esoteric Imperial units like the rod, furlong,
and barrel. This crud serves as a deterrent to metric adoption, since
kids are left to wonder why they should bother learning "yet another"
measurement system with conversion factors like 39.37.

-Doug Ewell
Fullerton, California
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Curtis Clark

2003-08-19 16:15:11 UTC

Post by Pim Blokland
Ha! Fat chance! You might as well suggest we abolish the yard
altogether!

Then, how would I have a yard sale? (or even a yard sail?)
--
Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/
Mockingbird Font Works http://www.mockfont.com/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-19 12:40:31 UTC

Post by Marco Cimarosti
You could generalize it a bit: Alignment Of Metric And Imperial Units Whose
Difference Is So Small As To Be Pointless.
E.g., I never understood why on earth metres and yards should be kept
different. In a public park somewhere in UK or Ireland I have seen the

Because the yard isn't just an isolated unit, like the pound in various
European countries. It's part of a coherent (if profoundly messy) system.
If we reduce the yard by 9%, the inch has to shrink too, and the last
thing we want is to try to fit a 1/4 inch bolt (6.35 mm) into a nut
whose inside diameter is only 5.81 mm. It's bad enough to have to have
two kinds of hardware already: having incompatible things both labeled
"1/4 inch" would be the facilis descensus Averno indeed.
--
John Cowan ***@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan
"The exception proves the rule." Dimbulbs think: "Your counterexample proves
my theory." Latin students think "'Probat' means 'tests': the exception puts
the rule to the proof." But legal historians know it means "Evidence for an
exception is evidence of the existence of a rule in cases not excepted from."

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jony Rosenne

2003-08-19 17:55:44 UTC

Post by J***@aculab.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 2:41 PM
To: Marco Cimarosti
Handwritten EURO sign)
It's bad enough to have to have
two kinds of hardware already: having incompatible things
both labeled "1/4 inch" would be the facilis descensus Averno indeed.

There are three: Metric, regular Imperial with 1/32", 1/8" etc. and decimal
Imperial with 0.1".

Post by J***@aculab.com
--

www.ccil.org/~cowan "The exception proves the rule." Dimbulbs think: "Your
counterexample proves my theory." Latin students think "'Probat' means
'tests': the exception puts the rule to the proof." But legal historians
know it means "Evidence for an exception is evidence of the existence of a
rule in cases not excepted from."

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

t***@perdix.demon.co.uk

2003-08-19 19:34:01 UTC

In the UK the inch is now defined as 25.4mm rather than a subdivision of a
standard yard kept under lock and key. If you peruse electronics catalogues
you will discover that many components have leads spaced at a pitch of
2.54mm which seems a remarkable degree of accuracy. When I was younger they
were a nice round 0.1".

Tim
--
Tim Partridge. Any opinions expressed are mine only and not those of my employer

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-19 21:00:10 UTC

Post by t***@perdix.demon.co.uk
In the UK the inch is now defined as 25.4mm rather than a subdivision of a
standard yard kept under lock and key.

True enough, but the yard is still exactly 36 inches.
--
If you have ever wondered if you are in hell, John Cowan
it has been said, then you are on a well-traveled http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
road of spiritual inquiry. If you are absolutely http://www.reutershealth.com
sure you are in hell, however, then you must be ***@reutershealth.com
on the Cross Bronx Expressway. --Alan Feur, NYTimes, 2002-09-20

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Doug Ewell

2003-08-19 15:37:45 UTC

Around the 1970s, it became fashionable for baseball stadiums to display
field dimensions on the outfield walls in meters as well as feet.
Unfortunately, they decided to be overly precise with the conversions,
and so you saw things like

330 ft
100.58 m

painted on the wall. This taught millions of young baseball fans that
the use of metric units requires carrying measurements out to 5
significant figures. (Of course, the original "330 feet" was not
necessarily exact to the nearest 0.01 foot.)

-Doug Ewell
Fullerton, California
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Michael Everson

2003-08-19 16:26:23 UTC

Post by Doug Ewell
Around the 1970s, it became fashionable for baseball stadiums to display
field dimensions on the outfield walls in meters as well as feet.

Because of the Canadians?
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Raymond Mercier

2003-08-19 16:46:29 UTC

At some time in the 70's when I was at conference to mark the centenary of
the Greenwich meridian I learned that the French agreed to give up the Paris
meridian if the British agreed to go metric-and that was over a century ago
!
Maybe the U.S. could be bribed to go metric if they were allowed to have
Washington as the standard meridian.

Raymond Mercier

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Ted Hopp

2003-08-19 17:52:06 UTC

Post by Raymond Mercier
At some time in the 70's when I was at conference to mark the centenary of
the Greenwich meridian I learned that the French agreed to give up the Paris
meridian if the British agreed to go metric-and that was over a century ago
!

Since we're speaking of the French (we are, aren't we?) what ever happened
to French Revolutionary Metric Time?

Post by Raymond Mercier
Maybe the U.S. could be bribed to go metric if they were allowed to have
Washington as the standard meridian.

Sorry, it would have to be Greenbank, not Washington. However, the radio
telescope there fell over in a storm years ago, so never mind.

Personally, I prefer base 60 and base 16 to base 10. (But please, this is
not an attempt to link this thread, whatever it is, to the Hexadecimal
thread. 50159344557)

Ted

Ted Hopp, Ph.D.
ZigZag, Inc.
***@newSLATE.com
+1-301-990-7453

newSLATE is your personal learning workspace
...on the web at http://www.newSLATE.com/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Raymond Mercier

2003-08-19 20:10:21 UTC

Ted Hopp writes

Post by Ted Hopp
Since we're speaking of the French (we are, aren't we?) what ever happened
to French Revolutionary Metric Time?

The other French attempts were less successful, such as the 12 30-day
months. The French names for the months Vendémiaire, etc., were parodied in
an English version: wheezy, sneezy, freezy, slippy, etc.

One decimal dystem that survives is the grad (400 grad = 360 degrees), still
used at least by surveyors, but Laplace used it in astronomical
calculations.

The Americans won't have the meter now, unless it's renamed the
freedom-yard, I suppose.

Raymond

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Pim Blokland

2003-08-19 21:04:53 UTC

Post by Ted Hopp
Sorry, it would have to be Greenbank, not Washington.

Greenbank. Hm... has a nice ring to it. Greenbank... Greenbank Mean
Time. I could live with that.

Post by Ted Hopp
this horrible non-decimal measurement system the US
has for time: the number of units per other unit vary all
across the board: 60..61 : 1, 60 : 1, 24 : 1, 28..31 : 1,
12 : 1, 365..366 : 1 -- awful.

If you don't want to give up the year as a unit, you will always be
stuck with this ratio of 365.24 days to the year; no way you can
change that. Live with it.
We can discard the months, of course, the length of the months isn't
related to anything anymore; the weeks can go as well, and if we
just divide the day up in 100000 small units, we've done away with
most of the illogics.

Post by Ted Hopp
At least with inches, feet, and miles, the number of feet per
mile don't vary depending on which mile one is talking about!

Well, not all of those measurements are the same size. Disregarding
nautical miles, there's still the matter of the yards. Did I mention
that my front yard is not the same size as my back yard?

Pim Blokland

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Delacour

2003-08-19 21:14:17 UTC

I've spam enough without all this chit-chat. Go find yourselves a chat room!

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Doug Ewell

2003-08-20 04:02:26 UTC

Post by Ted Hopp
Since we're speaking of the French (we are, aren't we?) what ever
happened to French Revolutionary Metric Time?

It was revived in 1998, but the meridian was moved to Switzerland, the
day was divided into 1000 "beats" instead of 10 hours of 100 minutes
each, and the whole thing was dubbed Swatch Internet Time. See:

http://www.swatch.com/internettime/home.php

-Doug Ewell
Fullerton, California
http://users.adelphia.net/~dewell/
@210

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jungshik Shin

2003-08-20 04:25:41 UTC

I have no idea whether that's the same conference, but in early 1970's
it's also decided that the abbreviation 'GMT' would be deprecated
and 'UTC' should be used in its place. It's regrettable that a lot of
otherwise well-I18Nized/standard-conforming programs/libraries still use
'GMT' in place of 'UTC'. (BBC is free to use GMT, but GMT is _different_
from UTC). Note that UTC is neither an acronym for English (it'd have been
CUT although UTC can be argued to represent 'Universal Time Coordinated')
nor French (TUC), which was likely to be a part of the 'deal'.

Post by Raymond Mercier
Maybe the U.S. could be bribed to go metric if they were allowed to have
Washington as the standard meridian.

At least, there are two (or more) of the most accurate atomic clocks
near Washington (NIST and USNO) that 'weigh' heavily in 'coordinating' UTC :-)

Jungshik

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter Kirk

2003-08-20 09:15:45 UTC

Post by Jungshik Shin
I have no idea whether that's the same conference, but in early 1970's
it's also decided that the abbreviation 'GMT' would be deprecated
and 'UTC' should be used in its place. ...

And I thought from the subject line that the Unicode Technical Committee
(as in "UTC Agenda Item...") was supposed to have something against GMT.
I trust not, Unicode doesn't need more enemies!
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Curtis Clark

2003-08-19 16:17:25 UTC

Post by Marco Cimarosti
TOILETS ------->
50 yds (45.72 m)

To be precise, it should have said 50.00 yards (or perhaps 46 m).
--
Curtis Clark http://www.csupomona.edu/~jcclark/
Mockingbird Font Works http://www.mockfont.com/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

James H. Cloos Jr.

2003-08-19 21:41:45 UTC

Marco> TOILETS -------> 50 yds (45.72 m)

Curtis> To be precise, it should have said 50.00 yards (or perhaps 46 m).

Actually, 50 only has one significant digit, so that would
in fact round to 50 m afterall. ☺

-JimC

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

J***@aculab.com

2003-08-19 11:20:37 UTC

In Esperanto, there is no word for "yard". If you want to say "It was 50
yards away" you are expected to convert the distance to meters before
translation. Such is the requirement of a global language.

However, Esperanto was not entirely successful in its goal to become a
second language for everyone, given that more people speak Klingon than
Esperanto, so this is probably irrelevant to your statement (which was
itself irrelevant to the subject title, which was off topic from the
original title, which was in turn off topic for this forum). I think that
made sense.

Jill

-----Original Message-----
From: Marco Cimarosti [mailto:***@essetre.it]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:51 AM
To: 'Doug Ewell'; Unicode Mailing List
Cc: Michael Everson
Subject: RE: [Way OT] Beer measurements (was: Re: Handwritten EURO sign)

E.g., I never understood why on earth metres and yards should be kept
different. In a public park somewhere in UK or Ireland I have seen the
following sign:

TOILETS ------->
50 yds (45.72 m)

It must be a reeeeeally urgent need if one cares about those 3.28 metres...

_ Marco

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

John Cowan

2003-08-19 12:50:43 UTC

Post by J***@aculab.com
However, Esperanto was not entirely successful in its goal to become a
second language for everyone, given that more people speak Klingon than
Esperanto,

Entirely false. Esperanto speakers are numbered in the millions, including
hundreds, perhaps thousands, who speak it natively. It is a complete
human language with a vocabulary capable of discussing anything, and a
literature including both prose and poetry. Fluent Klingon speakers
probably do not exceed 100, and there is only one native speaker,
who no longer speaks it; the vocabulary is quite limited, as is the
literature.
--
De plichten van een docent zijn divers, John Cowan
die van het gehoor ook. ***@reutershealth.com
--Edsger Dijkstra http://www.ccil.org/~cowan

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Marco Cimarosti

2003-08-19 14:52:15 UTC

Post by Marco Cimarosti
It must be a reeeeeally urgent need if one cares about those 3.28

metres...
4.28 actually.

Ooops.

Post by Marco Cimarosti
But are you serious about lengthening the yard to be the same size
as the meter?

I was just joking...

Post by Marco Cimarosti
Ha! Fat chance! You might as well suggest we abolish the yard
altogether!

... What I really meant was this, in fact.

Everybody understands that "50 yards" on a sign for a toilet, or "1000
yards" on a sign for a filling station are just rough approximation
(especially since they cannot know in advance which closet or hose I will
use). They just mean "The toilet is quite close, resist!" and "Start slowing
down and prepare to turn".

It would be just as fine writing "50 m" or "1000 m". Of course, this is if
you *want* to abolish the imperial system and adopt the metre; but this *is*
what UK and Ireland have decided to do.

_ Marco

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hohberger, Clive

2003-08-20 10:35:17 UTC

And to add to confusion, the military also calls it "Zulu time", as in
1230 GMT= 1230 UTC = 1230Z.

Very confusing, especially if you've ever been to South Africa...
Any one there knows that the Zulu Nation lives at GMT+2 hours!

Clive ;-)}

************************************
Clive P Hohberger, PhD
Corporate VP, Technology Development
& Director of Patent Affairs
Office: +1 847 793 2740
Cellular: +1 847 910 8794
FAX: +1 847 793 5573
E-mail: ***@zebra.com
************************************

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
KnowledgeStorm has over 22,000 B2B technology solutions. The most comprehensive IT buyers' information available. Research, compare, decide. E-Commerce | Application Dev | Accounting-Finance | Healthcare | Project Mgt | Sales-Marketing | More
http://us.click.yahoo.com/IMai8D/UYQGAA/cIoLAA/8FfwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: unicode-***@yahooGroups.com

This mailing list is just an archive. The instructions to join the true Unicode List are on http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jon Hanna

2003-08-20 13:34:50 UTC